X3 Economy Guide Version 1.6 (Updated 10 Jan 06)

[simonnance]

you can add minse to a complex, you just have to be careful you dont end up with the connecting tunnels going straight through the roid!

btw, can you confirm that you need Warheads tomake misisles now, i though that was a secondary resource for AI fabs?

My complex is pumping out Crystals, with only ECells going in, which is ok though coz i am right next to Akeela's Beacon that has 3 SPPs (2M, 1XL) and close to Company Pride (2M, 1 XL again) and Aladna Hill, the sector i am in has 1 SPP itself!

Oh, and the best way i seem to find to set up a complex it to start at the end (what you want to sell) and work your way back down the chain. So if you want to sell Crystals, you buils the CF, attach it to the first fab (say the Silicon Mine) and then attach it to the Cahonna Bakery, then to the cattle Ranch (if you are clever you can make the ranch link to the bakery, and then to the CF, but that is purely cosmetic!

[giskard]

simonnance: Yes to warhead question mate and rimes too.

DTomlyn: buy at prices = yes i agree but wont be writing that info in my guides. So you will not get any compition from me mate

Giskard

[DTomlyn]

TBH, my 'Prices at which to buy' list is always a pretty informal thing anyway, since the economy can change quite a bit, sometimes making some higher prices still viable occaisionally.

The only thing that really matters is the Station Stats spreadsheet - but that takes a long time to do...

[giskard]

Yes its a lot of work.

I tend to focus on general concepts because its easier to maintain between patches. Plus it lets the player discover the rest him self whilst pointing him in the right direction.

giskard

[marioman]

That's interesting and useful.

It'll be interesting to know if one can, indeed, add mines into the complex - if so, I wonder if we need to locate areas where asteroids are in favourable locations. This doubly so if (to use your example) a 100% self sufficient missiles complex was desired, requring of both ore and silicon. Such a complex would also be *ENORMOUS*, possibly the single biggest structure in the X-Universe. I wonder if there are limits on size of complex or numbers of modules.

You can connect Mines and there is a 26 station limit on how many factories you can use.

For the sake of research I spawned me a mammoth TL and used one of LV's scripts that spawns stations into a TL and have built a huge super complex in Herron's Nebula which consists of:
2x XL SPP
5x Crystal Fab M's
3x Cattle Ranch M's
3x Cattle Ranch L's
4x Cahoona Bakery L's
1x Silicon Mine L (26 yield)
1x Ore Mine L (18 yield)
1x Scruffin Farm L
1x Massom Mill L
1x Wheat Farm L
1x Beta PAC Forge
1x Drone Factory
1x Weapon Component Factory
1x Ammunition Factory

Total: 26 Factories

I tried adding a Rimes Fact for the warheads but no matter where i placed it it wouldn't allow me to connect.

Anyway there is a major flaw with the complex pricing of goods. Buy and Sell prices are the same. A checklist needs to be added to the Parameters screen so for intermediate products you can select whether you want to sell or buy these. As it stand now, if I set selling price of 1900 for Crystals, it also sets the buying price to 1900 so instead of ppl buying my crystals they sell me tons of em for 1900. The opposite happens if i set buy prices to say 1400, then ppl buy up all my crystals for 1400 each. So what I'm suggesting is a setup kinda like this:

You have buy/sell check boxes that are "ratio'ed" so you can only select one or the other. Products (stuff made but isnt used in the loop) can only be sold. Resources (which are needed but not made) can only be bought. Then Intermediate Products (stuff that is produced but also used by something else within the loop) can be checked for either buying or selling, then you can set an appropriate price.
Also it needs to be fixed the fact that some products show up in the list twice. Like, I for instance, have Meatsteak Cahoonas listed as both a Product and Intermediate Product. It should only list under Intermediate as Product list should only be used for items which arent used by anything in the complex.

So for instance if I have a Cattle Ranch and a Cahoona Bakery, Resources should be E-Cells, Intermediate Products would be Beef, and Product would be Cahoonas. Then if I added in a Crystal Fab, Cahoonas should get moved down to Intermediate Products and Crystals put into Products, with e-cells and Silicon Wafers in Resources. Add in a Silicon Mine and Wafers should get moved up to Intermediate Products but removed from Resources. Then finally adding a SPP should move e-cells and crystals both to intermediate products, so you should then have nothing listed under resources and nothing under products.

Anyway enough of my longwinded post, hope this info is helpful to some1 (now time to finish the story line and start a new game and play for real this time lol) Oh and yeah a complex this size slows Herron's Nebula to a CRAWL lol

[giskard]

Good work marioman.

Must have taken some time to sort out.

I dont think complexes over 6 factories would be worth while my self, after that you get docking problems and other issues coming up. But its nice to know the limit.

Giskard

[Abernathy]

Worth a bump, so duly bumped

[stevecs]

Useful guide, wish I saw it before I blazed the same trail. One question though, I've been trying for the past 2-3 hours now trying to add a SPP into a complex and have ECs both as interrim products and products, but I really don't think it's possible. Anyone actually get this to work that can comment on it? I'm creating a small silicon/ore mine complex that I want to tie into a SPP so I only need to inject crystals.

[DTomlyn]

The only concern I have for complexes, is the amount of control you do or do not have over what product goes where and how?

For instance, my standard configuration for a full production loop in X2 was 1 SPP loops - (silicon mine/foodfactories) - but supplying two SPP's equally - meaning that I can use one to re-supply the loop and one wholly for sale/production. That way I don't have to worry about it, (unless a freighter should die) - I've tried it 'normally' trying to supply the loop and the production factories from one SPP but I had problems with that.

Does it work properly with complexes or not? - thats the big question...

[giskard]

Well Complexes need lots of work and all feedback about complexes is and has been gathered since day one of release and forwarded to the right people by various players in this forum.

I think these issues will be short term issues for X3, theres a massive amount of feedback thats growing daily on this issue and most of it is finding its way to Egosoft.

Giskard

[DTomlyn]

Well Complexes need lots of work and all feedback about complexes is and has been gathered since day one of release and forwarded to the right people by various players in this forum.

I think these issues will be short term issues for X3, theres a massive amount of feedback thats growing daily on this issue and most of it is finding its way to Egosoft.

Giskard

And it's nice knowing that Egosoft will listen and work on it - (unlike some other software companies I can think of) - which is nice

(Similar to one of the other games I play now and again - (Trackmania, by Nadeo) - the feedback there seems to work too ).

Well - atm, I'm keeping two saves going - one for the plot, and one with the merchant start - I might have a go with some of the others at some point too. The biggest problem I have though, is that my comp can have problems in a firefight if there's more than about 4-5 ships - starts jerking out just enough to make it hard to shoot things

[polygon9000]

Thanks for this info!! I love reading X3 guides before going to sleep. Better than Harry Potter

[Fraz86]

That's interesting and useful.

It'll be interesting to know if one can, indeed, add mines into the complex - if so, I wonder if we need to locate areas where asteroids are in favourable locations. This doubly so if (to use your example) a 100% self sufficient missiles complex was desired, requring of both ore and silicon. Such a complex would also be *ENORMOUS*, possibly the single biggest structure in the X-Universe. I wonder if there are limits on size of complex or numbers of modules.

You can connect Mines and there is a 26 station limit on how many factories you can use.

For the sake of research I spawned me a mammoth TL and used one of LV's scripts that spawns stations into a TL and have built a huge super complex in Herron's Nebula which consists of:
2x XL SPP
5x Crystal Fab M's
3x Cattle Ranch M's
3x Cattle Ranch L's
4x Cahoona Bakery L's
1x Silicon Mine L (26 yield)
1x Ore Mine L (18 yield)
1x Scruffin Farm L
1x Massom Mill L
1x Wheat Farm L
1x Beta PAC Forge
1x Drone Factory
1x Weapon Component Factory
1x Ammunition Factory

Total: 26 Factories

I tried adding a Rimes Fact for the warheads but no matter where i placed it it wouldn't allow me to connect.

Anyway there is a major flaw with the complex pricing of goods. Buy and Sell prices are the same. A checklist needs to be added to the Parameters screen so for intermediate products you can select whether you want to sell or buy these. As it stand now, if I set selling price of 1900 for Crystals, it also sets the buying price to 1900 so instead of ppl buying my crystals they sell me tons of em for 1900. The opposite happens if i set buy prices to say 1400, then ppl buy up all my crystals for 1400 each. So what I'm suggesting is a setup kinda like this:

You have buy/sell check boxes that are "ratio'ed" so you can only select one or the other. Products (stuff made but isnt used in the loop) can only be sold. Resources (which are needed but not made) can only be bought. Then Intermediate Products (stuff that is produced but also used by something else within the loop) can be checked for either buying or selling, then you can set an appropriate price.
Also it needs to be fixed the fact that some products show up in the list twice. Like, I for instance, have Meatsteak Cahoonas listed as both a Product and Intermediate Product. It should only list under Intermediate as Product list should only be used for items which arent used by anything in the complex.

So for instance if I have a Cattle Ranch and a Cahoona Bakery, Resources should be E-Cells, Intermediate Products would be Beef, and Product would be Cahoonas. Then if I added in a Crystal Fab, Cahoonas should get moved down to Intermediate Products and Crystals put into Products, with e-cells and Silicon Wafers in Resources. Add in a Silicon Mine and Wafers should get moved up to Intermediate Products but removed from Resources. Then finally adding a SPP should move e-cells and crystals both to intermediate products, so you should then have nothing listed under resources and nothing under products.

Anyway enough of my longwinded post, hope this info is helpful to some1 (now time to finish the story line and start a new game and play for real this time lol) Oh and yeah a complex this size slows Herron's Nebula to a CRAWL lol

While almost everything in your post is completely accurate, and definitely worth reading for anyone looking to set up a complex (as you definitely address the major problems with them), the 26 station limit is not correct. I'm not sure why you could not add any more stations, but I have a station complex with 30 stations in it:

1 XL SPP
2 L Silicon Mines
1 M Slicon Mine
2 L Ore Mines
2 L Cattle Ranches
2 M Cattle Ranches
2 L Cahoona Bakeries
2 M Cahoona Bakeries
1 M Bio Gas Factory
1 M BoFu Chemical Lab
1 M Soyfarm
1 M Snail Ranch
1 M Space Jewelry Factory
5 M Crystal Fabs
1 Advanced Satellite Factory
1 1 GJ Shield Production Facility
1 125 MJ Shield Production Facility
1 Alpha Flak Artillery Forge
1 Alpha HEPT Forge
1 Beta PAC Forge

It's entirely self-sufficient and makes infinite money (along with my 24 level 25 Dolphin Super Freighter Universe Traders), but has completely destroyed the sector Ocean of Fantasy. It takes over a minute just to load the sector, and then may frame rate is disgusting. The complete complex spans about 80 km.

[giskard]

Well the next update to complex section will be after they fix them. Hopefully the fix will mean the complexes are not so complicated to setup in the future.

I am looking out for saved games where the complex is not selling the goods it should sell as primary products. I intend to use them to test the fixes out. Egosoft will want to know the results too but its also good for this guide.

If have a save like that then please pm me and i'll make arrangements to collect it. Dont worry about upload locations, i have a few places we can use for that or theres always email or msn.

Btw Im currently working on the factory section, so if you guys have any good tips, post them below. I am about to build a trading station and set it up as a trading hub. I may even write some especial scripts to enhance its functions and allow the player to trade between 2 trading stations and thus move products from one side of the universe to the other where the demand for them may be higher.

I wanted to do this in X2 but figured if wait for X3.

Right now im thinking a simple looping command "sell to this station" will work providing it leaves half the stock in the current trading station. You should be able to setup entire convoys to travel great distances to sell goods anywhere, where you have a second trading station.

This in turn should in theory allow you to centralise your production areas in well defended locations.

I dont know if you considered the side effect of the current X3 features and i wont spoil it for you if you have not, but not having your factories scattered across the universe may prove helpful later.

You might want to consider that now because later if Egosoft do what i hope they will do, it could be painful for you to scatter your factories in that way.

Giskard

[giskard]

Guide Updated.

There is now a big section on owning and running your own trading station. Lots of things to consider here due to the changes in X3 so you might want to read it now before you buy station and wonder why only 5 freighters can dock with it.

Trading stations have lots of issues right now.

Giskard

[giskard]

English Version NOT UPDATED yet.

Since the guide is or has been translated into more than 1 language now, im going to announce chances here to make it easier for those translating the guide to translate the major parts quickly.

Here is the new Trading Station and Equipement Dock Section that will be appearing as it appears below in the English version once i have added the factory section. This means German and Russian users who have access to the translated guide may get this update first if the translators are fast.

Owning your own Trading Station and Equipment Docks.

Trading Stations and Equipment Docks are still being developed in X3 at the time I write this. However X3 has made some pretty huge changes to these already. In X2 any Trading Station or Equipment dock owned by the player could be made to sell any product the player chooses. There are bugs in X3 that prevent some weapons from being sold from a Trading station that would appear to indicate which way the Egosoft wind is blowing here. So it might be worth buying a Trading Station to sell food and hi tech goods and not weapons in the future. Sticking strictly to typical items these huge structures usually sell when owned by the AI. This should future proof you, hopefully.

It appears all Equipment docks are the same but Trading stations are not. The one you buy pretty much decides how useful it will be because any freighters assigned to it that are not trading will occupy 1 freighter bay and if you only have 5 to start with then your going be to extremely limited. Especially since your forced to use selling freighters because the AI does not trade with player owned trading stations.

As a mod maker I see a mod being useful here to fix this part of the game. Anyway, one with the station stats.

Below is a list of stations and the number of docked ships they can support.

All Equipment Docks (And Shipyards) = 10 Ships of the class TS/TP/M6/M5/M4/M3 and 1 ship of the class TL/M1/M2.


Trading Stations.


Boron Trading Station = 5 Ships of the class TS/TP/M6/M5/M4/M3.
Paranid Trading Station = 5 Ships of the class TS/TP/M6/M5/M4/M3.
Split Trading Station = 10 Ships of the class TS/TP/M6/M5/M4/M3.
Argon Trading Station = 10 Ships of the class TS/TP/M6 and Unlimited Ships of class M5/M4/M3.
Teladi Trading Station = 10 Ships of the class TS/TP/M6 and Unlimited Ships of class M5/M4/M3.

As you can see the Boron and Paranid Trading Stations are only going to support 2 products effectively before ships start queuing because you need a buyer and seller freighter for all products right now. This makes them totally useless to players in the game. Hopefully Egosoft read guides and will fix this. 5 products for Trading Station is not that unreasonable so the Split Trading Station is usable. Though I personally would never buy one with those limitations.

All XL sized cargo need a freighter so Ore, Silicon, Laser Towers are always going to be jobs from TS type ships. L size cargo will need to be carried by M3 Fighters that are capable of carrying that size cargo. A typical cargo hold of an M3 is roughly around 280 units. So it is not bad but it is expensive. Be careful though, the Pirate Falcon Vanguard and the Paranid Perseus have very small cargo holds and will be useless in this roll. The Falcon Hauler though is a totally different matter and according to its stats even comes with a rear turret. For Cargo of M or S sizes I recommend the Boron Mako. These have a very good cargo hold for their size and can do about 200kph too. Average cost of these is around 500,000 credits though. So using them will require a lot of cash.

Trading stations only need freighters to sell the big goods such as ore, the rest can be assigned to fighters if you own a Teladi or Argon Trading Station. You can see the goods sizes at the factory you buy them from. They are either XL, L, M or S.

Default Freighter Scripts.

The default freighter scripts are the only scripts available at the time I write this guide that can be used for Trading Stations and Equipment Docks. Since the AI does not trade with player owned Trading Stations and Equipment Docks, your going to need 1 buying freighter set to buy at best price and 1 selling freighter set to sell at best price. First though you need to drop 1 item of the type you wish to sell in to your Trading Stations or Equipment Docks to make it available to trade because the station management system is not available in X3 either. Once you have done this, it is best to set the price slightly higher than the minimum price for those goods to the Freighter will always buy at minimum price but will never sell at that price.

List of goods that sell well from Player owned Trading Stations.

The following foods always sell well from my Trading Station in Argon Prime so its assumed similar goods will always sell well from other races sectors.

Lvl1 Foods (Argon Beef etc).
Lvl2 Foods (Cahoona Meat Steakes etc.)
Energy Cells.


List of goods that sell ok but may use up a spare dock whilst waiting for goods to become available.

Please be warned, your ability to sell these items depends if there is a local demand for these products. In Argon space all these sell very well.

Satellites.
Wasp Missiles.
FireFly Missiles.
Quantum Tubes.
Warheads.
Crystals.

Products that do not sell well due to the economy or bugs.

Laser Towers (sell but only slowly).
Computer components (sell but only slowly).
Microchips (sell but only slowly).
ION Dispurtors (Sell once and stop due to a TS bug).
25MW shields (Sell once and stop due to a TS bug).
Alpha Flak Artillery (Sell once and stop due to a TS bug).

Also there has been an update to the "Available Freighters and Locations." section due to feedback from some Russian players who help me out here. Thanks guys

Heres the Updated section.

Paranid Freighters, Location, Max Speed, Max Cargo Capacity.

Thanks to Dual Nihil and Executor for taking the time to complete this next part for me. Much appricated guys.

Demeter Tanker = Paranid Prime, 110.00 m/s, 3800.
Demeter Miner = Paranid Prime, 117.70 m/s, 4370.
Demeter = Cardinals Domain, 110.00 m/s, 3800.
Demeter Super Freighter = Cardinals Domain, 79.20 m/s, 11210
Demeter Hauler = Trinity Sanctum, 88 m/s, 7600.

Thanks to everybody whos helping out with extra info and contributions. Its great when a guides information flows in both directions.

English players can expect to see these rewrites on Respawn and Argon Pedia as soon as I have finished my Factory research. Since im not big on Factory stats you can assume the research is linked to profits and impact on the local economy of certain factories.

For now though i will leave you with this tip: SPPs sell well with selling freighters but they are no where near the most profitable factory ive seen so far and cost twice as much as some more profitable factories do. So unless you need the energy, try another factory first. Also if your playing split, consider buying your SPP from another race.

Giskard

[giskard]

X3 Economy guide updated.

Almost completely re-writen to remove much of the waffle and make it easier and faster to read.

This guide is now complete except for any patches that occure in future patches that need to be taken in to account.

Giskard

[giskard]

The guide has been updated to more accurately cover 1.3 features.

Which means its shorter without the old bitchin about complex bugs and it does tell you why there is no separate selling/buying price on complexes and why i think they should never be one.

Giskard

[EricGameon]

These Links dont work Pleas post x3 economy guide in public area.

thx

[Mav'r'ck]

These Links dont work Pleas post x3 economy guide in public area.

thx

Sorry to continue the necrophilia, but the guide (version 1.7) seems to be there on his site:

http://www.respawn.co.uk/modules/newbb/ ... orumpost11